Dit is de volledige tekst van het interview met Alex Chang, tweevoudig hoofdcoach van The Dukes. Het interview vond plaats op 21 oktober 2023 in zijn woonplaats Nijmegen.
Age: 48 (oct. ’23)
Born: New Guinea
Parents: Mother: Australian & Father: Chinese- New Guinean
Raised: New Guinea & Australia (boarding school from the age of 12)
Started playing: At 12 (boarding school)
Position: Back row, scrum half
Coaching experience: Assistant head coach / coach 2nd team / head coach Dutch XV
1. Why rugby? Why not cricket, golf or swimming?
I come from a sports minded family. My aunt still holds a New Guinea national swimming record. My father mainly watched a lot of sports. My brothers played rugby, so I joined them. I felt more at ease at the multi-cultural rugby club (players people form Fiji, Samoa, Tonga) than with the predominantly white Aussie rules football culture.
I started playing at boarding school when I was 12. Rugby was my first love and was the first thing that loved me back and it never stopped doing that! I started playing senior rugby as a 1st year colt at 17. At first in the back row (7 & 8) until I was converted into a srcum half by my Welsh coach who had played 150-160 matches for Newport (Wales). Welsh rugby was very big in those days.
At Saturday nights we were watching rugby footage after rugby footage and he sort of educated me on decision making and the tactical side of the game. It has been one of my strong points ever since.
Rugby wasn’t that big in Australia when I started playing. I wasn’t until Australia beat England in the World Championships finale 1991 that it became popular and I got hooked. Later I started coaching the 2nd team of my club and became assistant head coach.
I met my wife when she was working in Australia. She’s done so for a total of 10 years. We left for the Netherlands, initially for 5 years, because of the children. We wanted them to be able to talk to their Dutch grandparents. They were brought up bilingual, I still speak English to them, but Dutch is not an easy language when you’re not living in the Netherlands. Furthermore my wife wanted to be close to her parents.
2. What was your first contact with the Dukes and how did that come about?
I came to the Netherlands in 2007 and stayed at my mother in law’s place in Oploo. But, I was planning to live in Nijmegen, so I contacted Sil van Veggel, chairman of Obelix (then playing 2nd class) who has become a good friend of mine. But it didn’t work out, because they already had a coach with whom they were satisfied.
Friends of ours from Den Bosch told me the Dukes were looking for a new coach. That was very much confirmed when I saw their website that opened with: The Dukes are looking for a new coach!
After a phone call with Serva Urlings and a conversation for an hour in Motel Nuland (my wife waiting in the car) with Serva and Dave Haynes (international recruiter), I was invited for a second interview at Simon’s place. So I looked on the internet for a bar, a pub or a restaurant in Den Bosch by that name, but couldn’t find it. Luckily someone told me that it was at Simon’s home.
That second interview with six guys (Jos Meis, Simon Green, Boudewijn de Rouw, Dave Haynes, Henrie Eikemans, Eric van der Zande) must have gone well, because they rang me up a few days later. They were happy to have me as a head coach. I was 32 when I started coaching the Dukes, very young for a head coach. There were players that were (almost) my age. But that wasn’t a problem.
3. Can you describe your first impression of players individually and as a team?
I have to say that at first I was pretty sceptical about the level of rugby in the Netherlands. But actually it turned out to be pretty good. My first memory of the Dukes (My god, I’m training international players now…) and the 1st team players was at the Dukes tournament, BBQ and all. I was surprised by the quality of the guys. The backs had pretty good ball handling and kicking skills and they loved to attack in an open and attractive style. When I met the big guys (Ferd, Costin, Catalin, Boudy) I said to myself: Size is not going to be an issue 😊. Quite a funny moment..
I gained a connection especially with Ferd, who had lived and played in New Zealand and had an idea of Australian culture. We already went out for drinks that first night…. Every now and then we’re still in contact.
The next time I met Gerard at the A’dam Sevens, saw Wilco play and thought ‘Jesus, this guy is amazing’. We clicked on another level. They played a very open style of rugby, even the forwards. It was a very positive outlook start for me.
4. What were their strongpoints? What opportunities did you see?
The Dukes were very good at running and passing the ball because of their handling and kicking skills. That was definitely a strongpoint of their game. Problem was: they always wanted to attack form anywhere. It didn’t matter where they were at the field.
So, there clearly was a Dukes style: open, fast rugby, wanting to play and use the ball. Running rugby was always there. Always wanting to play and run. Attacking rugby. That was definitely a strongpoint and I didn’t want to kill that!
5. What clearly had to be developed? What changes did you make?
The biggest change: temper the running rugby, because they always wanted to play, always and from anywhere on the field. You can’t do that, not when you want to be at the top. You have to find a balance. I didn’t want to kill it, I just wanted to get them to understand to attack form the right part of the field (their 25 yards). So, I started organizing them: the kicking game, the chasing game, what to do where on the field. We could do the fancy stuff, but in their 25. They loved the fancy stuff, but you have to do the ugly stuff as well: the defensive game (chasing the ball and getting forward in one line of defence is kind off boring) and put in the hard work defensively. In that very attacking team, defending was a weak spot. More structure and stability was needed without killing the open play they liked so much and were good at. That took longer than I had wanted. And it was not just the physical side you have to develop.
The club wanted to become champion. Everyone talked about it. But that’s not enough. You have to be able and willing to put in the hard work. Don’t think about the result, but think about the process. Get better every match and training, do the ugly stuff and put in a lot of hard work.
6. Is there a clear reason why this specific team became champion?
The lost game on the Wednesday against DIOK. after Carnaval was the turning point. The players thought we had lost the final right then and there and realised they had to improve their mental part of the game as much as putting in the hard work and do the fancy stuff. Talking about becoming champion isn’t going get you there. We had never even played a final and thought we lost it that night against Diok. But, we did the math and saw we still had a chance, depending on the bonus points we won in the last games and the saldo. The group of players with (international) experience and in their prime years (26-28 years) was a huge support. They understood what had to be done.
We had beaten Castricum at ‘little All Blacks town’ and at home we needed a draw against them to get to the finals (because of competition points). I told the ‘leadership group’ at the time (Boudy, Bart, Costin & Catalin, Ferd, Dan) only about one minute before the game that a draw would be enough. Bart kicked the last penalty and we had made it to the finals.
The final was close. Eventually we won because of a bit of bad luck and a bit of good luck. Dan (19 years at the time) was told to throw the ball off the pitch, but that was foul play. Then H’sum didn’t kick, probably because it was not an easy kick and over more than 40 meters. They didn’t want to put that load on the shoulder of their young kicker (Fedde Lingsma).
7. What were your personal goals when you started as head coach?
My personal goal was: being a professional coach. I put a lot of effort into that. Coaching the Dutch team was a step up in that direction, also bearing in mind that I had been coaching The Dukes for 6 years. A change would be good for me and for the club. Now I’m a professional rugby coach, that is what I do and, if the opportunity comes along, I would like broadening that to other sports as well.
8. Did you have fun coaching the Dukes?
Yeah. Look, I was coaching a rugbyteam – an Ereklasse team – and that was what I had wanted. And I could be the coach on the field and after the game I could be one of the rugby guys. And the guys were great at that. Also I managed to hide pretty well that I was (just) 32 😊.
When you’re a 2nd coach – as I was in Australia – you take all your directions from the head coach. So I learned how to manage people from him. I had learned how to manage guys who are dropped from the first team. I had been doing that for a few years, so I knew how to manage disappointment and give players a perspective. But now I had to put my own philosophies and my own technical theories in place which in many ways were untried.
If I would start as head coach of the Dukes for the first time now, with this group of players, I think I would coach them differently than I did then. I would have read the group better, I would have approached them differently because of their age, I would be more patient and careful because they were young kids and not an experienced group of players. I would have to nourish them more than I did the first time. My man management skills would also be better through years of experience, and my perspective on the game has matured.
9. In what way did you change The Dukes?
Getting the right mind set: stop talking about the result, let’s start worrying about the process and let’s train hard doing that. You build your confidence and with confidence comes connection and with connection comes commitment. That was the strength of that first team. They felt they had something to prove (elements in the club told them they couldn’t do it), which made them wanting it very badly. They held each other responsible of their game, not anybody else. They demanded full commitment. If you didn’t want that, you had to get out the team.
They learned to be mentally tough. Just put them in situations they have to deal with and they just did it (Henrie, Boudy, Bart, Gerard, etc.). That team had that mental strength, who knew each other very well (they were local, only Dan & the Bubu’s came from abroad) and they really wanted it.
And they realized what they had around each other. They were mates and becoming a really successful rugby team. The flow was theirs… They started to believe.
Preseason training. That was a culture shock, but preseason is essential and should be the toughest part of the year. You build not just your physical fitness, but also your resilience and perseverance, the mental part of the game. You build your confidence (not arrogance) because you know you can do the work. Be more focussed in training. Do the things you have to do and do them well.
Building confidence because you know you can put in the hard work. Manage expectations and prepare them also mentally. Create problem solving situations that they could get into and do their stuff. Mentally tough means: being confident, but not arrogant, and getting the work done!
10. What happened the year after the championship.
Some players made different choices; couldn’t bring what the team asked of them. Winning becomes a habit. We lost our Calimero attitude. From the team that hunted, we became the team that everybody was chasing. Staying champion is harder than becoming it. Even getting to the finals is very hard in itself, not just because of the effort you have to put into it, the number of games you have to win, but also because of the expectations. Some players couldn’t deal with that.
The 2nd final (‘t Gooi) we didn’t play it smart. We should have taken the kicking points in the first half with a hurricane behind us and should have won that game. That loss made us beatable. I think that – had we won the 2nd final – we would have won 3 or 4 at a row.
In the 3rd final (Hilversum) Bart was sent off with a red card after a spear tackle which he denied having made (he was bothered by it, it annoyed him, he was surprised about the penalty, because he’s not that kind of a player). We watched at the video afterwards and it wasn’t a spear tackle (yellow, not red). He just didn’t put the guy down as he should have. And playing 14 against 15 in a final is hard.
The 3rd final against H’sum we dominated the first 20 minutes. Then they scored from a mistake on our part, we missed a kick he normally would have made and we just fell apart, collapsed, crumbled and fell back to the ‘old, unstructured game’ because we were down one player. Suddenly we started thinking about result and not about our game. I’m not really sure if the opposition became better, although H’sum clearly had spent a lot of money on players they brought in from abroad. We didn’t want to do that (and didn’t have the means), which is fine. We made other choices and still were very competitive at the top level and just happened to play our worst game at the last game of the year.
To say that H’sum had bought the championship is a bit harsh. You still have to train and do the work, you still have to be a team, you still have to win your matches to get to the finals and then win that as well. You still have to get it together. They probably had the best team in that era and we were second best. We played them in 3 of 4 finals, so it was probably us and them that were the dominant teams in that time.
At the fourth finals H’sum was clearly the favourite. They had won all their matches, so we had to hope for an off day on their part. But that didn’t happen.
When you become champions, you get used to being a winning site. You get used to put in the hard work, to winning, to being favourites and to opponents being intimidated because you are the champion and you have beaten them before. You have won at least the mental game before you’ve started to play the match. What also happens when you become champion is that good players want to come to your club, like Caro Bakker, Stefan Vos, Diede Brekelmans, etc.
After the championship the drive was still there, although a few guys enjoyed the off season that second year just a little too much. And to keep things fresh you have to make some changes. Younger players coming through meant that – as an experienced player – you had to keep working, still putting in the hard work to earn your place.
Players like Glenn (who wanted to leave, but was convinced to stay by Jos Meis), Norbi, Maarten, etc. came through. Being around guys like Bart, Boudewijn, Gerard helped shape them. Great thing about Boudy was that he wasn’t, scared to tell any player – without exception – straight forward but with respect what he thought of their play and commitment. When he felt there was something wrong, he would talk to a player after the game or even in a private conversation. His only agenda was: ‘What’s best for the team’. His leadership was not to be questioned or he would set you straight. He was leading his team by example and also had his generals in the team and on the field. They were the leading group.
11. Why did you come back?
I had followed the Dukes and saw them being beaten by teams we used to beat ourselves. I Talked to Geert and he convinced me to come back. I had been national coach for 5 years, so again: time to change. When I started as a national coach 12 guys turned up for training and I wanted to change that. I wanted young players to be inspired by their own national team and not by foreign players. When I left there were 40 guys wanting to play in the orange shirt was what I had wanted. They are not really there yet, but I hope they will get there and realise their responsibility as role models. At the end I was pretty happy with what I had achieved. I seem to be the guy to rebuild things. Then I coached the students for another year (of 4 years in total) which was fun, but probably a little bit too much fun. Their third half was always better than the first and the second. But I was aiming to get back into the Ereklasse. Geert asked me to look at the possibility to come back and luckily, he wasn’t the only one. I know some people were opposed to me returning, but you can’t please everybody. And I came back with my good friend: Richard.
We came into contact when he started playing for the national team again. Such a great player, a great leader and very nice person. He makes other players better players. He’s got one of the best rugby IQ’s I’ve ever seen. His analysis of the (absence of) performance by the Dutch team was spot on. So I drew up a plan to improve that and to start winning games and he backed me up.
He is someone I trust for 100% and a good friend. He likes to be second in command because he likes less responsibility and fooling around with the players as well.
When I came back there was a big difference in club culture compared to the first time. The club knew how to play in the Ereklasse, the board was very supportive with a chairman (Eric) who just wanted the club to be better and wanted the first team to be playing where they should be: in the top four, playing the play offs and preferably the finals. The board supported us, especially in the first few years. They knew the team wasn’t in the best of states and they knew it was going to be a long process.
12. What had changed when you came back as a head coach?
The opinion the players had of themselves was probably a bit ‘overinflated’, guys were having a laugh and were joking on the bench while their teammates were being dusted by 50 points on the field. Guys were smoking on the bench and those sort of things. We had built something in these first 6 years. We had built this era of success: 4 finals and 2 semifinals in 6 years. We weren’t outside the top four in 6 years. After me Carel took them to 3rd place, Andy took them to 2 finals and the year after that they finished in the bottom 6. Something had to change. Playing in the 1st team and playing Ereklasse apparently was good enough and that annoyed me. Guys were used to winning and they assumed that was just going to continue. What we lost was the ethic to work hard, just train hard and built an element of toughness. I was almost as if we were living on the results of the past. We are the Dukes, so we’re going to win (resting on our laurels). We assumed it was always going to be happening and it doesn’t work that way.
When we – Ritchie and I – came back 15 to 20 players had left, decided to step down, went back to their ‘old’ club, etc. The leaders had left the team and a lot of ‘rugby knowledge’ had disappeared. Some of the guys of the first period afterwards felt guilty for doing so. They felt that – as younger guys of the first period – they should have been the experienced guys and the leaders of the second period. They should have been the core of that 2nd team.
Also some talented young players left the club to go and play elsewhere. But that’s what happens. But that always happens. You always have a movement of guys coming and going. Players have different priorities like family or work or you just get old…
So, we were dealing with a team without leaders. They experienced leadership as winning always. It’s easy to lead when you’re winning and it’s so hard to lead when you’re losing games. They didn’t’ have the resilience it takes to be a natural leader. These first two years we were at the bottom of the Ereklasse, but I had to bring in these young guys. We didn’t have anyone else. The first year we even almost got renegaded. At the end Mitch and Glenn came out of retirement to lift the game.
13. What turned that around?
The first thing that happened was Covid. You have to take your hat off for Eric because he pushed hard for the testing, he pushed hard to continue training and playing. We were training in groups of two and four, keeping our distance. But, our ball and passing skills got so much better.
Then players were tested before and after training, before and after matches before getting on the bus, but we played. Then more clubs joined in. It was important for the team to be able to train and play together and just to have contact with each other. Guys were able to drink a beer together. That period brought the group so close to each other. It proved to be very good for the team. At the end it took 1,5 year to be able to get out on the field and play a normal game of rugby or having a normal training session again.
The second thing that happened was the opportunity to bring in some players. It helped to lift their game. They were great people and the elevated the group of boys they still were. After al, the first team was 25-27 when I started coaching them, the second group were young guys, 19-21 years. They needed a different approach and players that could lead the way. We were unlucky but with a bit of luck we could have made it to the finals.
The board was very consistent in their support and created opportunities for us to keep on training and playing. In that sense, the club had become more professional. Although the way the board thought about rugby was pretty professional, also in that first period.
The board has always been think about: How do we make things better? How do we improve our trainers? How do we facilitate the first team, which is a very important part of being on the board. So, at the end, getting back to the top of the Ereklasse was a combination of what had happened during Covid, bringing in experienced players whom you can learn from and a board that was supportive.
As a coach you keep looking at the process. We were at the bottom of the Ereklasse, but we were getting better. The team had come more together during Covid, also because they didn’t have any other options to go somewhere, and the young guys learned from the more experienced players we could bring in.
When I got back, someone in the TC told the team that we were going to build and we were not going for the championship. Some of the older guys (27/28) weren’t happy with that. It might even be their last chance of becoming champions, because Rugby on that level is a young man’s game. Old players play in the 3rd or 4th. So, they didn’t want to build, they wanted to become champions again. And where did this mentality change from that prevented to become champions again. They felt they hadn’t the time to build. But then, in the background, you are always building, even when you’re champions.
The group lacked leadership. There was no one to take the lead. And then somewhere along the line the culture changed from being a team that could be champion because they put in the effort to a team that thought it could be champion, but wasn’t prepared to act like one.
And then more experienced guys come in the team, guys who know and read the game, guys with a more professional attitude. Who even play through their injuries and find a way to get out there and play. They were fantastic for this young group of guys coming through. They taught the younger guys how to professionalize themselves. This team now has the capability of doing something now, but their commitment might be a problem. They give up their sport too easy and go away on holiday.
The guys in the ‘07/’08 team didn’t do that. They knew that someone else would take their position. And they had someone to tell them it wasn’t acceptable to go away during a match day or even a training. The team wouldn’t accept that. And you always save some free dates ‘cause you know games might be cancelled.
That’s different now. The team is a great group of guys with players who are developing into great leaders. Maybe they still lack someone who tells them what they can’t do that because it annoys your teammates and is bad for the team. But I think the team is building to get there again. There’s more depth in the team and if you’re not there someone else just might step in. It’s a young team that’s maturing and aging. More players are turning 25-28 and are at the peak of their athletic capabilities. They have a number of years Ereklasse experience, they’re entering their best period and should be ready to go ‘pop’ and get a good result in a year or two. But again it’s a mental thing. Their attitude has to change. They must be willing to put in the hard work.
14. Why stop as a head coach?
And again, I Left for very similar reasons as I did the first time. I guess that after 6 years your message just isn’t heard as well as you want it to be. It’s not the wrong message, but they get gets used to it. And we as trainers get used to the team getting used to it, we get used to the team, we form relationships with them. [That’s why the article is called ‘the new broom’]. The club was getting used to us and to our message. For instance, at first we got 90% of what we asked for. But, when we wanted to take the team to the next level, we always had to fight for it. And that is the disappointment. You start to feel like the old couch in the room: We don’t need a new one, because this one can go on for another year. We were still dancing by ourselves while the music had already stopped.
That’s when I said to Richard it was time to go and he agreed. We were getting more support when we were down and struggling then when we wanting to take the team to the next (higher) level. I found it a shame because Mitch (as sponsor) invested a lot of money in a lot of players. We had to capitalize on that, make everything around us benefit and become (even) more professional. We had to look ahead to the next era of the game. The next big thing in Dutch rugby is ‘recovery’. If teams and coaches don’t look now at how to better recover, they’re nuts. It’s going to be the ‘next big thing’ because it is very important in a game like rugby. That’s why the WC takes so long: players have to recover in between games. What you invest in a good recovery of players will eventually come back to you in players who get fit again sooner and who are more often available to play. My biggest advice I’ve had for Marshall (Milroy, the newest new broom 😊) is ask for everything you want now, because you’ll get it. You have to dance to the music. After some years that will change: the music will stop. So now is your window of opportunity. You have to get what you want now, ‘cause as a coach you’re the guy that’s just been fired or the one that’s about to be. But then it’s also a good thing to leave after a few years. It’s better for the players to leave when the music has stopped. You get to be the old guy in the room.
I watched the team play against DIOK and the Hague on the Bosche Rugby Days and there was enthusiasm, a spring in their step and a touch of freshness. There’s a certain personal disappointment that we didn’t get it ourselves, but at the same time we’re happy for the boys that they get it.
I sometimes wonder how it was the other way round. How did the Dukes feel about having mee around. I know that there was a strong sentiment about players originating from the Dukes and not from abroad, which I understood. In Australia I’d pretty much been a one club person myself. But it never escalated. I was always able to do my job. Maybe some people couldn’t read me, thought I was a bit distant. That’s probably true, but then I was only 32, young, ambitious and I had something to prove. I remember a time I watched the game standing on the wall because I wanted to get a better view of the game because on the field everybody was close to the sidelines. Serva called me a few days later telling me that some people thought I was arrogant to stand on the wall. But then, some people like you and some do not. That will always be the case. So, don’t take it personally.
15. Is there a lesson to be learned from that comparison?
From a club perspective: things change. If you don’t change with it you will find yourself back at the bottom half of the Ereklasse or worse. Keep developing as a club. Recognize the relevant changes and change with them. The Dukes is too big and too good a club not to have a competitive team to not play a dominant part in Dutch rugby. That’s important for the players, for the club, for Dutch rugby and even for the region. The days of 2007-2008 with just Costin, Catalin and Dan Fox in the team are probably gone, as much as you would like to hang on to that dream. Times have changed. The amount of money clubs are investing in players means that – if you want to stay successful – you have to do that as wel. Invest in the right quality of player and the right quality of person.
But, don’t be dependent on them. Don’t bring in to many guys from outside the club or region even if there’s no limit to the number of foreign players. Look what happened to H’sum and before that to Castricum.
Make sure you have a solid structure and development program. Close the gap between the 1st team and the other teams, for instance by taking part and investing in the ‘Future class’ Make sure players still have to work hard to get better and are not selected just because they are young and promising. Because that’s where it went wrong the first time. Somewhere along the line we lost the conviction that ‘hard work pays off’. You have to be fit, you have to make your tackles, you have to play technically at a high level. Make sure you set the right mentality!
